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	<title>Comments on: What&#039;s Wrong With Orion?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/</link>
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		<title>By: tim</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-275</guid>
		<description>Please, does anyone really believe Lockheed is going to deliver this product.  Whens the last time a lockheed project came in on time and anywhere near budget.  My prediciton 4 years from know the moneys gone and the projects cancelled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, does anyone really believe Lockheed is going to deliver this product.  Whens the last time a lockheed project came in on time and anywhere near budget.  My prediciton 4 years from know the moneys gone and the projects cancelled.</p>
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		<title>By: DensityDuck</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>DensityDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-274</guid>
		<description>Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: alan</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-273</guid>
		<description>I fixed it for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fixed it for you.</p>
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		<title>By: DensityDuck</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator>DensityDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-272</guid>
		<description>Grr.  That&#039;ll teach me to post at a phpBB board before coming here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grr.  That&#8217;ll teach me to post at a phpBB board before coming here.</p>
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		<title>By: DensityDuck</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-271</link>
		<dc:creator>DensityDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-271</guid>
		<description>koblog:  No; it means that NASA wanted &lt;em&gt;what they are now asking for&lt;/em&gt; all along, and the &quot;competition&quot; was about whose proposal team had a better Powerpoint presentation.

Also:  Less functionality?  Sure!  Which means less weight, less complexity, less testing, less intricate engineering or technology development...NASA had absolutely no need for ANYTHING that the Space Shuttle could do.  None of it.  The STS was designed by the Air Force, who wanted a fast-response launcher for Keyhole vehicles.  The only reason NASA was able to do anything with it was arms-control treaties.

Indeed, you could look at the STS as the USAF&#039;s way of giving the middle finger to NASA.  The USAF had wanted an aerodynamic vehicle all along; see the X-15 and X-20.  And gee golly, look what the STS turned into, despite early studies showing that a VTVL capsule was exactly what NASA needed!


&lt;em&gt;(Edited to fix the emphasis - Alan)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>koblog:  No; it means that NASA wanted <em>what they are now asking for</em> all along, and the &#8220;competition&#8221; was about whose proposal team had a better Powerpoint presentation.</p>
<p>Also:  Less functionality?  Sure!  Which means less weight, less complexity, less testing, less intricate engineering or technology development&#8230;NASA had absolutely no need for ANYTHING that the Space Shuttle could do.  None of it.  The STS was designed by the Air Force, who wanted a fast-response launcher for Keyhole vehicles.  The only reason NASA was able to do anything with it was arms-control treaties.</p>
<p>Indeed, you could look at the STS as the USAF&#8217;s way of giving the middle finger to NASA.  The USAF had wanted an aerodynamic vehicle all along; see the X-15 and X-20.  And gee golly, look what the STS turned into, despite early studies showing that a VTVL capsule was exactly what NASA needed!</p>
<p><em>(Edited to fix the emphasis &#8211; Alan)</em></p>
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		<title>By: SnarkyBytes » Orion Redux</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-270</link>
		<dc:creator>SnarkyBytes » Orion Redux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-270</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;You don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about Snarky Boy.&#8221; that came from this and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;You don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about Snarky Boy.&#8221; that came from this and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: koblog</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-269</link>
		<dc:creator>koblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-269</guid>
		<description>Well, DensityDuck, I may have to agree with you. The customer may well be at fault. But it makes the whole proposal process a farce. NASA&#039;s stated reasons for selecting LMC were design, cost and schedule.

The almost immediate changes in design, escalation of cost and extension of schedule (after using those same reasons for rejecting NGC) tell me that NASA was simply going through the motions with the proposal process, intending to give LMC the contract all along.

NASA would save a lot of time and money by simply granting their supplier of choice a no-bid contract.

And, sadly, after it&#039;s all said and done, Orion is Apollo on steroids with less functionality than the shuttle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, DensityDuck, I may have to agree with you. The customer may well be at fault. But it makes the whole proposal process a farce. NASA&#8217;s stated reasons for selecting LMC were design, cost and schedule.</p>
<p>The almost immediate changes in design, escalation of cost and extension of schedule (after using those same reasons for rejecting NGC) tell me that NASA was simply going through the motions with the proposal process, intending to give LMC the contract all along.</p>
<p>NASA would save a lot of time and money by simply granting their supplier of choice a no-bid contract.</p>
<p>And, sadly, after it&#8217;s all said and done, Orion is Apollo on steroids with less functionality than the shuttle.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyatt Wingfoot</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-268</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyatt Wingfoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-268</guid>
		<description>Geez, Pan-Am had one of these already going in 1968, er,  &lt;b&gt;2001&lt;/b&gt;!

See: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.creationstudiosnw.com/img/orion3.JPG&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pan-Am Orion III Space Clipper&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geez, Pan-Am had one of these already going in 1968, er,  <b>2001</b>!</p>
<p>See: <a href="http://www.creationstudiosnw.com/img/orion3.JPG" rel="nofollow">Pan-Am Orion III Space Clipper</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter A. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter A. Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-267</guid>
		<description>I liked the LOX-Augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket (LANTR) better than Orion.  You get the end-burn Isp of NERVA with an early-burn T/W ratio more like a conventional chemical rocket.  But I don&#039;t really believe that higher Isp is necessarily the key to a cost breakthrough.  Skilled labor, not propellant, drives the cost of space launches.  Maxwell Hunter argued that lack of intact abort capability, with its associated quality control nightmares, was driving the labor costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked the LOX-Augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket (LANTR) better than Orion.  You get the end-burn Isp of NERVA with an early-burn T/W ratio more like a conventional chemical rocket.  But I don&#8217;t really believe that higher Isp is necessarily the key to a cost breakthrough.  Skilled labor, not propellant, drives the cost of space launches.  Maxwell Hunter argued that lack of intact abort capability, with its associated quality control nightmares, was driving the labor costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Frederick Davies</title>
		<link>http://snarkybytes.com/2008/07/18/whats-wrong-with-orion/#comment-266</link>
		<dc:creator>Frederick Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://snarkybytes.com/?p=709#comment-266</guid>
		<description>I still think that rather than nuclear pulse propulsion, we should be trying for nuclear rockets like NERVA. They achieved 800+ sec of specific impulse in actual ground test firings in the 1960s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think that rather than nuclear pulse propulsion, we should be trying for nuclear rockets like NERVA. They achieved 800+ sec of specific impulse in actual ground test firings in the 1960s.</p>
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