It’s been a long time coming, and I’m not the first to say it, but I think Sebastian is doing more harm than good to 2nd amendment activism. With todays post against open carry, he’s become the next Zumbo.
Open carry activists have a lot of energy, and they are willing to show up, and that alone puts them ahead of 98% of gun owners. But I think the open carry shit is distracting, and is taking away from what otherwise would be amazingly effective activism. Instead of having media stories about gun owners opposing lost and stolen, you have media stories about people showing up openly armed.
No. What’s distracting is supposed 2nd Amendment “activists” only supporting rights when it suits their agenda. The PFOA showed up, calmly presented their side and the Scranton council, realizing their law might violate state law, tabled the ordinance. That is NOTHING but a win for our side.
That the win was buried in a media article with the headline “Firearms display at meeting concerns city council, public” is immaterial. OMG! The media is anti-gun!
Thing is, the article wasn’t that bad. It even ended on a positive note and SURPRISE! nothing happened. The PFOA won, the public saw a bunch of armed citizens exercising their rights and no one got hurt. I see that as nothing but a huge win.
Rights are rights all the time, Sebastian. Not just when they’re convenient to you. If you can’t accept that then you need to hang up the blog and stop pretending to be a 2nd Amendment activist.
he plaxicod himself some time ago.
Zumbo? He equated us with terrorists?
I don’t see that in his post. Not liking the protest method is not the same as not supporting rights.
Ends. Means. I think both of you agree on the latter. The former, not so much.
Don’t know if it at the level of a Zumbo but he seems he is starting to be ashamed to be a gun owner.Like there is something wrong and dirty about it.If you treat firearm carry as something to be ashamed of then how are you ever going to gain acceptance.
It’s a hard road to normalizing guns when so much machinery is invested in demonizing them, fracturing, and building a mythology.
From SayUncle: “Not liking the protest method is not the same as not supporting rights.”
Read the comments. He goes on to say: “But you know, thinking about it, maybe it’s time I admit I don’t really support open carry as a carry method either, unless you just don’t have an alternative.”
Legal supporting it is one thing, but when a supposed gun rights (i.e.: human rights) supporter essentially says the he supports it legally, but thinks that nobody should do it except in limited circumstances is inviting the loss of the right. How does it go? “A right not exercised is a right lost.”
I don’t generally agree with him here, but I wouldn’t call it “Zumboing”
It’s Zumboing because he’s willing to throw a segment of the gun owning population under the bus because he doesn’t agree with it.
Mark, he makes the distinction that one is a method of carry and one is a method of protest. I don’t think he’s saying he doesn’t support the right but he’s not a fan of the method either. that’s different.
I think the problem with Sebastian’s position is that going around worried that the exercise of our rights might scare or offend others is an exercise in futility. Obviously you don’t have to be an “in your face” asshole everytime you carry in public.
The preservation of our rights is doomed if we let people who go apeshit at the mere sight of an inanimate object dictate when and where we carry.
I do agree with Sebastian that OC as a form of group activism may not be the best idea. I think we have a better chance of normalizing it by having gun owners simply go about their daily business armed.
Virtually everything you do will offend someone. If I lived life worried I might scare or offend someone I might as well not bother with my blog either.
“Mark, he makes the distinction that one is a method of carry and one is a method of protest.
Can’t it be both at the same time, protest and simply a method of carry? I may not always like the way others exercise their rights but isn’t it imperative that we support everyone who exercises their rights, especially those we disagree with?
I cringed when I heard of the guy in AZ OC’ing the AR at first, but ultimately I felt obliged to support him, even though he did something I wouldn’t have done. Why? because ultimately he did nothing more than exercise his rights and there were no aggravating actions on his part for which I should throw him under the bus.
I think the point in equating it to the Zumbo situation is that his statement has the effect of alienating those who should be his allies. It’s not a perfect analogy, but what is?
I wouldn’t have nearly as much problem with Sebastian’s sentiment if there were any shred of evidence that he’s right…but there just isn’t. It’s his opinion, based on feelings and assumptions.
As Snarky said, the press will ALWAYS try to spin things like these in an anti-gun direction…that’s just what they do…but the general public is, by this time, well aware of the biases of the media.
The take-away, again as Snarky said, is that armed citizens went to a meeting and nothing bad happened.
I like to think of Virginia as ground zero for the open carry movement…we went through these arguments 5 or 10 years ago. The same types of arguments were being used then. The problem is that in practice, the naysayers turned out to be dead wrong (so to speak).
Open carry tends to get people to whom the subject would not normally even occur, to think about it. To talk about it. To evaluate the issue critically. The vast majority of those who aren’t already predisposed toward hoplophobia will reach the inescapable conclusion that citizens carrying defensive firearms is simply not a threat to society.
My opinion is not based on assumptions and feelings but on my personal experiences over the past ten years that I’ve been regularly open carrying, and with the successes we’ve experienced on the legislative front here in Virginia.
Contrary to the opinions of the naysayers, open carry is an effective vehicle for public outreach. SIH and Clayton Cramer can “feel” that it does more harm than good all they want, but my experiences tell me otherwise.
Hmm…..
Vicious Circle 25: Why Pennsylvania and everyone who lives there sucks. Be there for all the hate!!
🙂
i think you who OC (like me) have to remember that we have already found out that no one really cares. he’s still on the other side of that door. he still does not know that no one except the professional whiners makes anything of it. anyone that’s reading this and wondering about OC, find some local OCers (if it is legal in your state) and do it for a while with them. you’ll find out how not scary it actually is. as for Sebastian, he’s still on the team. we shouldn’t emulate our political opponents and burn him at the stake.
find some local OCers (if it is legal in your state) and do it for a while with them. you’ll find out how not scary it actually is.
Yup, even here in northern Delaware people don’t make a big fuss about OC. Is it common? No, but I’ve yet to see people freak out at me, or at anyone else I know who carries. It seems that most of the negative encounters involve cops rather than members of the general public.
The thing that really strikes me is the number of people who don’t even notice the gun on my hip. I think many others just assume you’re a cop if you OC.
Read the comments. He goes on to say: “But you know, thinking about it, maybe it’s time I admit I don’t really support open carry as a carry method either, unless you just don’t have an alternative.”
That was more an expression of frustration that people were confusing what I was saying than a serious statement. Frustration doesn’t come across on the internets very well. Either way, I don’t really believe that. I think it’s fine for people to open carry, but there are times when discretion is called for. Anywhere the media is going to be is one of those times.
Yes, the media is largely anti-gun. But I don’t see any reason to hand them a story that allows them to distract from the message that’s trying to be conveyed. Lost and Stolen is a real battle, with real consequences. Open carry is already legal. When they showed up with openly carried guns, the story became about open carry rather than Lost and Stolen. It might be their right to show up to the city council meeting with guns openly carried, I don’t dispute that, but I think they would have done better to go concealed for the meeting. The last thing we needing Pennsylvania is another preemption fight over carry at public events.
I appreciate they showed up, and getting the bill tabled was great. I don’t want to detract from that. But shit like this has a habit of working out just fine until it doesn’t. We have powerful forces that are interested reshaping the politics in Pennsylvania considerably less in our favor, and I’m afraid shit like could play right into it.
I might be wrong. I hope I am. But the last thing I want is to end up on the defensive on issues that weren’t a problem until we made them a problem.
“…but I think they would have done better to go concealed for the meeting”
That, of course, is entirely your opinion, which, though you absolutely have a right to express, you begin to loose credibility when you add this to it:
“But shit like this has a habit of working out just fine until it doesn’t. ”
Habit? What habit? I’m with Robb Allen when he demands proof. Show us *some* kind of study with evidence that leans heavily toward exercising a right causing a deterioration of the freedom to exercise that right.
Speaking of doing things for the good of the gun rights movement and all that:
Perhaps if being disagreed with frustrates you so much that you say something that is the opposite of what you really believe, you might give some thought as to whether your opining about these issues in public is a good idea.
Here’s something else to think about:
“I think it’s fine for people to open carry, but there are times when discretion is called for. ”
Precisely. 100% agreement here. However, just as we can never presume to judge how a particular DGU unfolded and how that particular armed citizen reacted without having all the facts, or really, *being* in his exact situation, who are we to judge what action is necessary in a particular setting?
My general rule of thumb is that if I’m acting safely and my weapon is properly secured (not Sarah-Brady-secure, but Jeff-Cooper-secure), and I’m not in a place that is going to get me arrested stat (despite being legal, aka Massachusetts with a Class A LTC), or cause genuine panic (rather than the pants wetters at the late Mrs. Haines kid’s soccer game), then I would open carry. I’m the only who can make that assessment. Not you, nor anyone else.
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Hmm…..
Vicious Circle 25: Why Pennsylvania and everyone who lives there sucks. Be there for all the hate!!
I rip the wings off of the Ruffed Grouse, their accursed state’s official bird …
http://markofafreeman.blogspot.com/2009/10/hunters-open-carrying-and-hate-crimes.html
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If you don’t use a right, or part of a right, because you are afraid it would be made illegal than that right effectively does not exist.
As an outside observer who associates with almost exclusively outside observers, in other non-gun people, the open carry at the protest meetings in August made all of you look like lunatics. Please listen to me, in the circles most of you run in, you might not have an opportunity to hear what folks not in your circle think. Those protesters did your movement more harm than good. I don’t know how to measure such a thing other than what comments I hear around me. And believe me, the reaction was bad. In the never-ending debate about the 2nd Amendment or about gun rights in general most non-gun folks couldn’t care less and don’t even notice. But in these incidents they did and their reaction was not attraction but ridicule and repulsion.
How would you say that would compare to say a gun control advocate openly admitting to criminally owning guns?
http://weerdbeard.livejournal.com/568583.html
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2009/10/mikeb-and-illegal-guns.html
Would look a lot like you’re advocating a better work environment for your fellow criminals, wouldn’t it?
mikeb, lemme clean that up for you:
Glad to help!
Damnit, why is the strikethru tag not supported? I blame Macs.
pdb is
made of failnot UNIX friendly.What part of <s></s> does your blog not understand?
@Mike W.
Ultimately, I think what Chris (Arizona AR15 guy) did was for the good. The White House was forced to come out, on record, and say that what he did “was completely legal”. It drove a small wedge between Barry and the Brady Bunch. Time will tell if that wedge amounts to anything but it was a start.